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Ammunition reloading in your county 
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Joined: 07 Jan 2013 10:12
Posts: 164
Post Ammunition reloading in your county
Legal in Slovakia for holders of category E licence (sport shooters). Only required aditional requiement for E cat. licence is membership in a sport shooting club (costs 20-40E per year).
https://www.reddit.com/r/EuropeGuns/com ... r_country/


Last edited by IN THE BULL on 17 Sep 2019 11:22, edited 2 times in total.



17 Sep 2019 11:18
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Joined: 07 Jan 2013 10:12
Posts: 164
Post Re: Ammunition reloading in your county
same old boys club https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/de ... B1%5D=bill

Mr. J. O’Keeffe
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I have no difficulty with the section. The amendments are of a technical nature and I ask that they be considered.



Brendan Howlin
Mr. Howlin
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I have to start from a basis of ignorance. I do not understand what this is about, what "reloading ammunition" means, for example. It strikes me that it is a dangerous procedure. How many engage in this activity? Perhaps it is a regular occurrence, but it strikes me that there would be planning and health and safety issues involved. Is it necessary to provide for this in any way?



Michael McDowell
Mr. McDowell
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This arises from people coming to my Department and clinic. I had never heard of the phrase before and was not aware of the activity involved. If a person is an Olympics marksman, just as a billiards player chalk his or her cues, he or she will disassemble munitions to ensure the correct velocity or power. It is arcane in some respects but it does happen. Under the law, such a practice is illegal and regarded as the manufacturing of firearms. The people concerned have to test bench operations where they carry out these activities, all done in good faith. Specialised equipment is required. A person would not yank off the top of a bullet, shake out the powder and proceed in a crude way. It is a state-of-the-art process for the marksmen involved. They pointed out that technically what they were doing was illegal.


Mr. Howlin
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Am I misreading the amendment? I understood the purpose of this section was to allow firearms dealers to do this work.



Mr. McDowell
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No, it covers anybody who has a firearm certificate, which a person must have to carry out the work involved.


Mr. Howlin
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The new section 10A(1) reads: "A person (except a registered firearms dealer or the holder of a licence under this section) who reloads ammunition is guilty of an offence."


Mr. McDowell
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Yes, without a licence, it is an offence.



Mr. Howlin
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Could firearms dealers do this work?


Mr. McDowell
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If they have a firearm certificate, they can.



Mr. Howlin
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How many will be affected by this?


Mr. McDowell
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I cannot put a number on it, but I am sure it is——



Mr. Howlin
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Is the number entirely composed of competition marksmen, or are there others who may be reloading?


Mr. McDowell
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I do not know how many have firearms and for what purpose. The number who would dream of pulling apart a bullet and fiddling with the contents would be very small.



Mr. Howlin
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I hope so.


Mr. J. O’Keeffe
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They are high class shots who participate in competitions with a pistol.


Mr. McDowell
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By this definition an ordinary decent thug who wants to shoot somebody's head off will not reload cartridges. Only those who have a particular reason to do such as accuracy, muzzle velocity and related issues wish to have their ammunition at the peak of perfection.


Mr. J. O’Keeffe
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It is legitimate.


Mr. McDowell
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Yes, nobody who is bad-minded would be interested in this provision. If they were, they would be prosecuted for possession of firearms and ammunition.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe
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They would not be looking for a licence anyway.


Mr. McDowell
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Yes.


Aengus Ó Snodaigh
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Premises must be defined as being separate or distinct from living quarters. There should be a secure workshop. From the description of the Minister, I do not know where——


Mr. McDowell
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I will deal with those issues by way of regulations.


Aengus Ó Snodaigh
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Is there a section in the principal Act dealing with the repair of weaponry and associated matters?


Mr. McDowell
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We dealt with that matter in the previous section.


Aengus Ó Snodaigh
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This would not come under it; that is why I am asking.

Mr. McDowell
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This section relates specifically to ammunition. It deals with a quasi-manufacturing process for ammunition.


Aengus Ó Snodaigh
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Clearly, it has the same implications for the storage of equipment — the accelerant, gunpowder, etc.


Mr. McDowell
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If a person has a licence, a superintendent is entitled to apply conditions to it. I have no doubt these would be stringent.


17 Sep 2019 11:20
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Joined: 31 Mar 2009 19:10
Posts: 1844
Location: Eastern UK, Oregon USA and Ontario Canada
Post Re: Ammunition reloading in your county
Oh dear me. The ignorance is appalling. They are obviously unaware that a number of LEGAL shooters in the Republic have been doing this since 2011.

Their lack of basic terminology is understandable, as none of them have the slightest idea what is entailed in loading or reloading your own ammunition. They are currently limited in their comprehension by a total lack of anybody to TELL them what they need to know, in spite of all the documentation available on-line or in those wonderful hard-copy things that the rest of us mere mortals call BOOKS.

It is nothing less than shameful to read how so many people in authority can be so unaware of what everybody else in the free shooting world is doing.

Is there really nobody over where you are who can TELL them? Somebody from the F-class team at the Midlands, for instance? Or are they so far removed from us ordinary folks as to want to keep it all to themselves after all?


17 Sep 2019 19:35
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Joined: 31 Mar 2009 11:37
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Post Re: Ammunition reloading in your county
This is slowly getting to the root of the reason sport shooting in Ireland is in such a state of decline. Where is the dedicated sporting body representing the wider range of disciplines. Instead there is a vacuum from years of back door negotiations, slanted towards commercial interests..... Dail debates above and below, go some way to explain the lack of progress. The reloading debate was heading for success........?

Those debates leads us on to wonder about the happy ending former minister for justice hand in mind for the Irish sport shooter.
His intention and that of the DoJ was that the proposed legislation was designed to, quote - “it covers anybody who has a firearm certificate, which a person must have to carry out the work involved”.
Meaning, reloading of ammunition was to be made legally possible for anyone with a suitable firearm certificate in Ireland.

Why did the state think it reasonable to offer those with a firearm certificate the right to reload ammunition?

The answer was and still is a simple one to understand.

Quote again the former minister for justice Michael Mc Dowell....”By this definition an ordinary decent thug who wants to shoot somebody's head off will not reload cartridges. Only those who have a particular reason to do such as accuracy, muzzle velocity and related issues wish to have their ammunition at the peak of perfection.”

“If they have a firearm certificate”.....Meaning - they can apply for reloading ammunition, once they have an approved secure place at home......

In black and white ready for approval until something or someone decided to muddy the waters?

Oireachtas Debates
Criminal Justice Act 2006
http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/ ... 6062800016
Quote:
[1253]
Mr. McDowell: The amendment proposes to narrow down further what is provided for in section 10A(3)(e), which states: “the premises where the reloading is to take place are sufficiently safe and secure for that purpose”. The Deputy proposes to provide that the premises “has secure storage for required material and equipment and is separate and distinct from living quarters”.

I have consulted in this regard and the advice I have received is that the amount of material involved in reloading is quite small and that in some instances, for some people, the most secure place for them to have this equipment is at home rather than in some business premises. If a reloading sportsman who carries out this activity under a permit is required to have the equipment in a place separate from his house, such as a shed, business premises or lock-up premises, to keep the equipment in a separate location would perhaps be less secure than keeping it under the stairs at home or otherwise. It is a judgment call. The advice from the Garda is that it does not believe it would be a good idea to require people to keep all this equipment in a separate place from their home because it would be more vulnerable to theft than if it were kept at home. Sometimes one’s home is one of the safer places one has at one’s disposal.


17 Sep 2019 20:29
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Joined: 12 Aug 2011 12:56
Posts: 361
Post Re: Ammunition reloading in your county
You're going to need a new sport, this one's shagged. Anyone out there better focus efforts on a solution for the ineffectual opportunists dumbing down on your sport :mrgreen:


18 Sep 2019 10:37
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Joined: 14 Nov 2009 13:21
Posts: 121
Post Re: Ammunition reloading in your county
Is there really nobody over where you are who can TELL them? Somebody from the F-class team at the Midlands, for instance?
Or are they so far removed from us ordinary folks as to want to keep it all to themselves after all?

Aengus Ó Snodaigh: The intention was not to require that the equipment be kept at a different location from that at which the work is done. Perhaps the amendment is badly worded. In using the term “secure storage” my intention was that a form of storage such as the secure cabinets used to store rifles in houses would be used. In using the term “living quarters” my intention was that this material would not be stored in a kitchen or bedroom but in another area such as a garage. I am flexible in this regard. While the wording may not be correct, the intention is to ensure the material is secure within the house, farmyard or other premises in which this work is done. One could have a secure premises within which a child could have access to these materials. Security in this regard does not refer only to intruders.


ray


11 Feb 2020 16:14
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Joined: 31 Mar 2009 19:10
Posts: 1844
Location: Eastern UK, Oregon USA and Ontario Canada
Post Re: Ammunition reloading in your county
Rayfn wrote:
Is there really nobody over where you are who can TELL them? Somebody from the F-class team at the Midlands, for instance?
Or are they so far removed from us ordinary folks as to want to keep it all to themselves after all?

Aengus Ó Snodaigh: The intention was not to require that the equipment be kept at a different location from that at which the work is done. Perhaps the amendment is badly worded. In using the term “secure storage” my intention was that a form of storage such as the secure cabinets used to store rifles in houses would be used. In using the term “living quarters” my intention was that this material would not be stored in a kitchen or bedroom but in another area such as a garage. I am flexible in this regard. While the wording may not be correct, the intention is to ensure the material is secure within the house, farmyard or other premises in which this work is done. One could have a secure premises within which a child could have access to these materials. Security in this regard does not refer only to intruders.

ray


I carry out MY reloading in a little shed at the end of my garden. The presses - I have three - are bolted down to the bench. Here in UK, where almost everybody who shoots, centre-fire firearms [not shotguns] reloads their own ammunition. I don't know anybody who reloads for shotgun, although it is done - ti's very long-winded compared to metallic cartridge reloading and I'm not sure that it works out much cheaper. You'd have to really be desperate to reload shotgun cartridges, IMO.

Still, the crime figures for the theft of reloading components are so small as to be non-existent, and I can't find ANY documentation or supportive evidence that it actually figures in crime at all. What is the thief going to do with all my .58cal lead bullets? Or any of my bullets, for that matter? Any crook who uses a 6.5 Swedish Mauser to hold up a corner store is probably not going to the bother of reloading for it............same for all my other stuff. Rifles just do NOT figure in crime here, but imported handguns do, by the tens of thousands, no doubt - all of them shooting ammunition that NOBODY reloads, because nobody here actually shoots a Makarov pistol.

The old crews who used to cause all the grief up in the North - of both persuasions - never reloaded - all their ammunition was provided for them by various supportive believers in their causes.

Now that Sinn Féin has their claws in your government, perhaps it IS time to look for another sport. They don't like anybody to have guns, do they? Except, of course, their behind-the-scenes supporters.


12 Feb 2020 22:42
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Post Re: Ammunition reloading in your county
The above politicians spoke at the select committee on Justice, Equality Defense and Women's rights debate - [Wednesday, 26 Apr 2006] on the reloading of ammunition!

It is obvious that the intention was to legislate for the reloading of ammunition. To permit reloading in Ireland for those with a certificate for possession of firearms and ammunition. The select committee was in the process of setting-out conditions for reloading to take place at home, the garage and/or the locked- shed. The then minister for justice then clearly stated, the 'advice' he received from the Gardai' [Irish Police] was that the amount of propellant was quite small, and to quote the minister for justice - "sometimes one’s home is one of the safer places one has at one’s disposal."
In other words reloading of ammunition in the opinion of the minister for justice was legitimate and on track to be part of the updated 2009 firerarms legislation. Between 2006 and 2009 something interfered with the intention of the minister for justice and the advice given by the Gardai. The proposal was then halted and sometime later altered to what became the ongoing reloading pilot scheme from 2011 to this present day. Surly after a nine year exhaustive reloading pilot scheme a report would of resulted that confirmed the advice what the minister for justice was given and recommended back in 2006.

If some considered the misisters on the 2006 select committee were of minor political status, incapable of taking a decision on reloading, they would be very much mistaken. The question remains unresolved - why the delay with the original reloading of ammunition proposal by the select committee fourteen years ago ?


Michael McDowell a grandson of Eoin MacNeill, practised as a barrister before becoming, minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform from 2002 to 2007 - leader of the progressive democrats and deputy prime minister, and attorney general of Ireland from 1999 to 2002.

Jim O'Keeffe- Skibbereen, County Cork, former Irish Fine Gael politician, practised as a solicitor before entering politics , served at the department of finance, foreign affairs, and Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh is an Irish Sinn Fein politician and party party whip - author and historian, who got the 2nd largest vote of any candidate in the recent 2020 election.

Brendan Howlin is the leader of the Irish Labour Party politician, who announced in the last few days he was stepping down, while still emphasising, Labours core values - fairness, equality and solidarity.

Mr. Howlin
I have to start from a basis of ignorance. I do not understand what this is about, what "reloading ammunition" means, for example.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe
It is legitimate.

Mr. McDowell
Yes, nobody who is bad-minded would be interested in this provision. If they were, they would be prosecuted for possession of firearms and ammunition.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe
They would not be looking for a licence anyway.

Mr. McDowell
Yes.

...?


15 Feb 2020 20:44
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Joined: 12 Aug 2011 12:56
Posts: 361
Post Re: Ammunition reloading in your county
Sep 18, 2015 minister announced a series of changes to the licensing of firearms in Ireland storage conditions for firearms and the reloading of ammunition.
Are we there yet https://www.vihtavuori.com/vihtavuori-distributors/
I can't think of any situation where the stakeholders are left waiting more than five year for an answer :mrgreen:


27 Feb 2020 14:51
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