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As Issued Class 
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Joined: 06 Jun 2009 09:39
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Post As Issued Class
download/file.php?id=2679&mode=view

Thought slings were not allowed in "as issued"

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1310

Go to Blackadders post (number 4) which includes rules for shoot.

"Rifle Slings: Until further notice- target sling will not be permitted for use in - as Issued competitions which includes the Garand slings."

:?


Last edited by bunny shooter on 20 Apr 2012 20:45, edited 1 time in total.



18 Apr 2012 20:39
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Post Service Rifle Sling
Relying on rifle slings for support makes the transition to how most traditional rifle disiplins are shot. Completing against rifles that may use a simple one piece straps/sling regardless of the type of sling - makes little or no difference once any 1907 type sling has not been configured as a 3 point sling. This essentially means the sling loop tightened around the supporting arm.

K31 users: Its timber stock becomes thinner from about half way towards the tip-end where at this point, the stock makes contact with the barrel. A target sling fitted tight can cause a point of aim shift with these rifles as a result!

American service rifle of WWI & WWII were standard issued with the1907 sling.
M1903 & M1903A3 SPRINGFIELD, M1917 U.S. ENFIELD and M1 GARAND
Attachment:
us_1907_sling7.jpg
us_1907_sling7.jpg [ 29.33 KiB | Viewed 16106 times ]


Rifle Slings for collectors and history buffs.
http://www.rifleslings.com/index.html

Where to buy:

Old Gunny sells the basic configured Turner Saddlery Service Rifle sling (1907)
He also stocks Kano Kroil penetrating oil made for the aviation industry - can be blended with bore cleaning solvent as well.

http://www.jarheadtop.com/default.htm

http://www.jarheadtop.com/Slings.htm


19 Apr 2012 12:31
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Post Re: Service Rifle Sling
I have used the "Garand" one periodically on my .303 and it makes some difference to stability tbh.

I reckon it helped me win the NRAI Historic Rifle National Competition last May (we were allowed use slings for kneeling practice, but not the prone one) 8-)

Personally I don't think we should use any slings for our "as issued" as it's not in the spirit of what we're doing.


19 Apr 2012 16:05
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Post Re: Service Rifle Sling
Quote:
I reckon it helped me win the NRAI Historic Rifle National Competition last May


Official matches under NRA rules or similar syle vintage matches held in the UK - begin normally at 200 yards. In the rest of europe - 300 meters prone target rifle dominates.
The offical NRA targets we use, are reduced targets adapted to scale from the SR 200 and 600 yard target (master targets) SR 200 yard what's used normally for standing, sitting and kneeling matches, MR63 reduced 600 yard for 300 yards. At these disdances, slings and correct targets which allows the target shooter aquire the target clearly scaled is how offical matches are structured. NRA UK use similar rules for vintage matches as well as modern black rifles (stright-pull) Their SR matches use an extend course of fire out to 500 yards. In the latest addition in one of the UKs leading shooting mag, a picture of an interesting timed fun variation staged at 100 yards is shown. The target shooter is standing against a post - no sling used.

Pattern 14 leather sling was first introduced in the early 1900s so I believe? No.1 Mk1 Enfield SMLE - NO4 MK1. It was not until the introduction of the web sling in the latter stages of WWII that the Pattern 14 was finally replaced.


Gunboards poll displays an example of both slings. 1907 M1917 Lend lease rifle with 1907 sling. Pattern 14 sling -SMLE
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread. ... put-it-on!!

http://mkleathers.pl/?p=664

Attachment:
lendlease7.jpg
lendlease7.jpg [ 210.14 KiB | Viewed 16083 times ]

Attachment:
SSAFull.jpg
SSAFull.jpg [ 187.56 KiB | Viewed 16083 times ]


19 Apr 2012 18:33
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Post Re: Service Rifle Sling
For other rifle sling info. Please put into Google The Rifle Sling Home Page.

All you ever wanted to know or not know etc :mrgreen:


19 Apr 2012 20:10
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Post Re: Castlemaine - Sunday the 15th Of April - 2012
bunny shooter wrote:
Thought slings were not allowed in "as issued"

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1310

Go to Blackadders post (number 4) which includes rules for shoot.

"Rifle Slings: Until further notice- target sling will not be permitted for use in - as Issued competitions which includes the Garand slings."

:?

________________________________________________________________________________________Personally_

Personally I think it’s making mountains out of mole hills.

If a person wants to use a sling as an aid so what, if we had a large enough group of people attending with a lot of various rifles, well then we can set specific disaplines.

As the vcrai competitions are running at the moment we want people to enjoy the fun of the day. Start making the competitions over strict and people will get pissed off.

As we progress and get more people we then can worry about what should or should not be done.

Please see copy from HBSA Rules for Service Rifle:If they are happy with the use of a sling why should we get our nickers in a knot about it, keep the fun element in our competition, not turn use into prudes.

The next thing you’ll complaining about is that some guy was using different ammo type to you, it's not the Olympic games.

Sikamick

_____________________________________________________________________

1. Re: Shooting slings for the Lee-Enfield No4
"HBSA Rules for Service Rifle:
R.4.1.
Sling:
Except where specifically excluded by Match Conditions, a sling may be attached to the rifle rifle and used as an aid to steady the rifle. The sling shall be either a two point or conforming to goverment pattern issued with that rifle and specifically approved by HBSA Council. The two-point is a strap, or two connected straps with means to adjust length, of flexiable material, not wider than 1.5 inches (38.1 mm), attached to the rifle at two places at least 8 inches (203.2 mm) apart, one of which may be a removable non-marring temporary attachment forward of the trigger, and arranged in such a manner that the sling tension at each attachment point is substantially equal. The United States Model 1903 Springfield and its derivatives, the Model 1917 and the Lee Enfield No 4 Mk1 (T) Sniping Rifle when used as a Service Sniping Rifle.

HBSA Rules for Service Target Rifle


20 Apr 2012 01:02
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Post Re: Castlemaine - Sunday the 15th Of April - 2012
My point is......................

The rules were posted and should be followed.

You can quote whatever rules you like from wherever you like but the posted rules posted on this site for this shoot said no slings in "as issued" in very clear, easy to understand language.

There is a rule that you can't use "reloaded" ammo too BTW.

And just for the record the molehill for me is ......................

Why have rules if we're not going to follow them?


So as my final comment on the subject ...................... before I'm accused of being "negative" and risk getting a ban again ............................. in my opinion either there are rules and EVERYONE follows them or there aren't any rules

Maybe we should do a poll?


20 Apr 2012 09:16
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Post Re: Service Rifle Sling
Hi Guys,

I am the culprit. I was using the sling in the photo. I must confess that I had'nt read the rules in Blackadder's post fully. I figured that the course of fire was the same as the one back in October, where after checking, there is no mention of slings.

So I offer my apologies to everyone involved.

Just on the point of slings versus sandbags or rests. The sandbag or rest provides a really stable and static platform for firing the rifle from, provided everything else is in place, such as breathing, hold, sight picture and trigger control.
The sling is also stable, but not static, but it does provide a firmer hold, and makes the rifle an extension of the body, for want of a better word. There are merits for both systems of stability, but the Jury is out on which is best.

Maybe as a suggestion going forward is to develop a number of courses of fire, based on NRA courses or Military or such like, and post them in the forum as a sticky. To include information on slings, sights classes etc.

As Bunnyshooter said, the standard of shooting is getting higher all the time, and we are determined to grow the sport.

I honestly think we have created a monster back in 2009 (no not you Bunny :lol: ). Since then the number of Classic rifles out there has really took off. Lads in Midlands, Hilltop, An Riocht, Harbour Hous and Phoenix all have purchased and shoot classic rifles.

So in conclusion, Hands up. I did'nt read the rules properly and therefore have no problem giving back my awards, if that is required.


20 Apr 2012 22:27
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Post Re: Service Rifle Sling
kryten wrote:
Hi Guys,

I am the culprit. I was using the sling in the photo. I must confess that I had'nt read the rules in Blackadder's post fully. I figured that the course of fire was the same as the one back in October, where after checking, there is no mention of slings.


Kryten, I was trying to single you out or embarrass you. Your explanation is totally plausible and acceptable. You're not the first person, nor will you be the last person, who didn't read the rules of a comp ;)

kryten wrote:
So I offer my apologies to everyone involved.


Personally, I accept it but it's not necessary, we all, including me :shock: , can make mistakes.

kryten wrote:
Just on the point of slings versus sandbags or rests. The sandbag or rest provides a really stable and static platform for firing the rifle from, provided everything else is in place, such as breathing, hold, sight picture and trigger control.
The sling is also stable, but not static, but it does provide a firmer hold, and makes the rifle an extension of the body, for want of a better word. There are merits for both systems of stability, but the Jury is out on which is best.


In my experience of using both I find either on their own or together to be very good to stabilise my shooting position and for longer range are invaluable to shoot well.

kryten wrote:
Maybe as a suggestion going forward is to develop a number of courses of fire, based on NRA courses or Military or such like, and post them in the forum as a sticky. To include information on slings, sights classes etc.


As we (VCRAI) are affialiated to NRA in UK I reckon we should adopt their rules.

kryten wrote:
As Bunnyshooter said, the standard of shooting is getting higher all the time, and we are determined to grow the sport.


I agree there is huge potential for this sport. Two friends of mine were there on the 15th and after what they've seen they are both buying rifles and getting involved with the VCRAI now 8-)

kryten wrote:
I honestly think we have created a monster back in 2009 (no not you Bunny :lol: ). Since then the number of Classic rifles out there has really took off. Lads in Midlands, Hilltop, An Riocht, Harbour Hous and Phoenix all have purchased and shoot classic rifles.


LOL to the clarification ;)

+1 to the rest

kryten wrote:
So in conclusion, Hands up. I did'nt read the rules properly and therefore have no problem giving back my awards, if that is required.


This is new to all of us and mistakes will be made by all of us at some stage.

The offer to 'surrender' you're awards is commendable but for me not necessary.

IMVHO the adoption & implementation of a comprehensive set of rules that eveyone who's participating in a shoot gets a copy of in advance will ensure situations such as this do not happen again (and if it does we will take back their awards :D ).


21 Apr 2012 09:12
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Post Re: Service Rifle Sling
Well, it has generated plenty of heat and interest that might not of otherwise occurred. It was actually back in declining days of 2008 this bubble caged monster escaped, kryten - there you go do it again. All's well that ends well ;)

The course of fire allows for last minute variations due to adverse conditions for example.
Suggestion - whats needed in situations like this - activation of the appointed judge on the day who ever they are? Between yourselves as-issued can put your heads togeather and come up with a course of action.

The way kryten used his sling close to his sandbag looks similar to the way match rifle shoot prone. Like the glove you wore have a similar looking pair ;) Baby steps come first before becoming accomplished master, confucius say.


21 Apr 2012 10:59
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Post Re: Service Rifle Sling
Blackadder wrote:
Well, it has generated plenty of heat and interest that might not of otherwise occurred..


More so than "heat" I saw it as solid & honest discussion of a percieved 'problem' that needed to be settled, which it has as far as I'm concerned. Anything that generates interest can't be all bad :D

This is/will be an on going situation and I'm sure there will be more of the same and if it's handled in the same way I predict we will have a very strong & united Association.

Members & participants should bring ANY concerns & cribs here so we can thrash them out and make this Association even better than it is.

Blackadder wrote:
Between yourselves as-issued can put your heads togeather and come up with a course of action.


As I started 'this' it's only fair that I work on a set of rules in the next few days and will post same for considertation & adoption by those affected.


21 Apr 2012 12:35
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Post Re: Service Rifle Sling
kryten wrote:
Hi Guys,

I am the culprit. I was using the sling in the photo. I must confess that I had'nt read the rules in Blackadder's post fully. I figured that the course of fire was the same as the one back in October, where after checking, there is no mention of slings.

So I offer my apologies to everyone involved.

Just on the point of slings versus sandbags or rests. The sandbag or rest provides a really stable and static platform for firing the rifle from, provided everything else is in place, such as breathing, hold, sight picture and trigger control.
The sling is also stable, but not static, but it does provide a firmer hold, and makes the rifle an extension of the body, for want of a better word. There are merits for both systems of stability, but the Jury is out on which is best.

Maybe as a suggestion going forward is to develop a number of courses of fire, based on NRA courses or Military or such like, and post them in the forum as a sticky. To include information on slings, sights classes etc.

As Bunnyshooter said, the standard of shooting is getting higher all the time, and we are determined to grow the sport.

I honestly think we have created a monster back in 2009 (no not you Bunny :lol: ). Since then the number of Classic rifles out there has really took off. Lads in Midlands, Hilltop, An Riocht, Harbour Hous and Phoenix all have purchased and shoot classic rifles.

So in conclusion, Hands up. I did'nt read the rules properly and therefore have no problem giving back my awards, if that is required.


was there slings worn in 1916 by volunteers:o


24 Dec 2012 14:46
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Post Re: Service Rifle Sling
I notice the OP posted a picture of the said offense but I also notice that in the picture the shooter is using the sand bags provided, not all on the day used sand bags.

The question that comes to mind is why didn't the OP bring his complaint to the attention of the range officer on the day instead of trying to embarrass any one individual on a public forum.


24 Dec 2012 15:17
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Post Re: Service Rifle Sling
Sikamick wrote:
..................The question that comes to mind is why didn't the OP bring his complaint to the attention of the range officer on the day......................


Simple, the OP didn't know it had happened until a poster here posted the photo on a thread. The OP was in the butts doing butt duty when the shooter in question was on the firing line. That's why the OP didn't raise the matter with the range officer on the day.

Sikamick wrote:
.................instead of trying to embarrass any one individual on a public forum.


And as for trying to embarrass others .............. at least I didn't wait 8 months to ask the question, unlike you ;)

It's supposed to be a season of goodwill to all. Obviously some within the VCRAI don't observe that tradition either.

My final word on the matter .............. after 8 months .................

Seasons Greetings to all in the VCRAI from all in the ILERA ;)


24 Dec 2012 16:25
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Post Re: Service Rifle Sling
Just seen this post Bunny,the cheek of you complaining about the use of a Sling when you wouldent use a sand bag you had a custom made bag,also it has come to my notice that you used one of my Videos on Irish Shooter.com wiithout my premission.
The video in question http://youtu.be/-0Yi5vujakk was made PURELY for the VCRAI and not for your association so please delete it immediatley or i will have to report you to Irish Shooter.com for copy write infringemants.
NOT IMPRESSED :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
HAWKEYE.








bunny shooter wrote:
http://www.vcrai.com/phpBB/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=2679&mode=view

Thought slings were not allowed in "as issued"

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1310


Go to Blackadders post (number 4) which includes rules for shoot.

"Rifle Slings: Until further notice- target sling will not be permitted for use in - as Issued competitions which includes the Garand slings."

:?


28 Dec 2012 18:56
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Post Re: Service Rifle Sling
hawkeye wrote:
Just seen this post Bunny,


Only took you eight months :shock: which is strange as it has never taken you that long to attack any posts I make here :?

hawkeye wrote:
the cheek of you complaining about the use of a Sling when you wouldent use a sand bag you had a custom made bag,


Understandable that you wouldn't be au fait with the rules for the competitions, as you weren't at that many.

"Front Rests" are/were allowed for in the rules. It didn't say you had to use sandbags, which weren't always available for everyone, so I simply provided my own version.

Slings, used as an aid to shooting, were prohibited in the rules though

Simple really.

hawkeye wrote:
also it has come to my notice that you used one of my Videos on Irish Shooter.com wiithout my premission.
The video in question http://youtu.be/-0Yi5vujakk was made PURELY for the VCRAI and not for your association so please delete it immediatley


Firstly, it was posted on Irishshooter.com but not on the ILERA thread.

I have dealt with your copyright claim, in so much as it exists. Just for the record posting stuff on utube you'll find affects your right to copyright over the video BTW ;)

I draw your attention to Utubes Terms of Use, especially Section 8.1 (B)

"8.1 When you upload or post Content to YouTube, you grant:

B.to each user of the Service, a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free licence to access your Content through the Service, and to use, reproduce, distribute, prepare derivative works of, display and perform such Content to the extent permitted by the functionality of the Service and under these Terms................."

hawkeye wrote:
or i will have to report you to Irish Shooter.com for copy write infringemants.
NOT IMPRESSED :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
HAWKEYE.


That would be your right and/or choice. However, as a threat, it is pretty hollow in light of the below :D

Actually, now that you mention it, I feature in that video and I did not sign a release allowing you to use any footage I am in. Therefore, please edit me out of it and in the meantime remove the footage from Utube straight away or I shall have to contact them about same.

As a goodwill gesture, as I know you have/had an Enfield I'll send you one of our patches for supposedly using your video without permission.


Last edited by bunny shooter on 30 Dec 2012 22:50, edited 2 times in total.



28 Dec 2012 21:02
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Post Re: Service Rifle Sling
Seems the rules specify "sandbags or elbows". In the future, if there are any more shoots, I'll simply have to refuse to shoot UNTIL I get sandbags that the organisers state they will supply as to use my own may be a technical infringment of the rules also.


28 Dec 2012 23:14
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Post Re: Castlemaine, Sunday the 24th of February 2013
8-)

Some questions....................

1. Is it an "open" shoot?
2. If it is how much for "non VCRAI members"?
3. Course of fire & classifications?
4. Competiton Rules? Especially some clarification on the issue of shooting jackets, shooting slings & what does/does not constitute a "front rest"?

Thank you


Last edited by bunny shooter on 05 Feb 2013 18:53, edited 1 time in total.



05 Feb 2013 16:50
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Post Re: Castlemaine, Sunday the 24th of February 2013
bunny shooter wrote:
8-)

Some questions....................

1. Is it an "open" shoot?
2. If it is how much for "non VCRAI members"?
3. Course of fire & classifications?
4. Competiton Rules? Especially some clarification on the issue of shooting jackets, shooting slings & what does/does not constitute a "front rest"?

Thank you

bunny you are at it long enough at this stage you should know the rules by now regarding slings.jsckets and custom made sandbags
Hawkeye.


06 Feb 2013 10:24
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Post Re: Castlemaine, Sunday the 24th of February 2013
I don't see the harm in requesting clarification considering what happened last year.

I'll assume you are speaking as one of the organisers and I'll further assume that if the rules are the same as last year then all I need to clarify is...........

1. Can I use my improvised "sandbag" or another type of front rest instead of the ones supplied by the organisers?

2. No slings (of any description), back bags and/or shooting jackets are allowed in "as issued" even if you have no front rest?

Sorry to be a pain BUT these things are better sorted now rather than at/after the event IMVHO.

Could I aslo request that a full set of the current rules be posted here so that participants have a chance to reacquaint themselves with them before the competition.

Thanks in advance ;)


06 Feb 2013 15:10
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