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Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount St. 
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount S
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Howth gun running organisers, Rodger Casement, Lord Ashborne and Mary Spring Rice.
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26 Dec 2012 17:25
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount S
Many years ago, I was reading about the high level of casualties suffered by the British Army during the Rising - as being 'not consistent with the relative inexperience of the Rebels with regard to the effective use of military arms of the time'.

I wrote back, offering to differ substantially in my own opinion, for a number of reasons -

1. Many of the 'Rebels' had actually BEEN in the British Army of the day, many in France over the previous near-two years of the war, and were therefore VERY well-versed in the effective use of the military arms of the day.

2. The British Army's tactics of the day were not designed with urban warfare in mind - a fact that undoubtedly led to the loss of life and injuries that were noted at the time.

3. It seems to have been overlooked by the commentator of the day that dug-in 'infantry' in good and well-protected positions will always beat the bejazus out of trooops walking openly down the street, as many of the British soldiers did initially. This is something that seems so obvious as to be ridiculous to point out, but it was a lesson that was hard-learned in blood over the Easter.

4. Being a shooter of an 11mm Model 71/84 Mauser, I can vouch for the fact that 'short-range' is an ephemeral thing. At a hundred meters or so, the usual urban distance between adversaries - often less - the .43cal hardened lead bullet is a serious item to use against an other human being - else it would not have been adopoted by the Prussian/German military, a serious bunch indeed. It is also to be compared, favourably, with the US Government 45-70, a cartridge with a very similar performance. I'd remind you that THIS is the same round that was used to drop 1500 pound bison where they stood. And so did the 11m Mauser.

tac


27 Dec 2012 11:35
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount S
Accounts of the battle from those who were there.

http://www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/r ... WS0309.pdf

http://www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/r ... WS0166.pdf

http://www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/r ... WS0310.pdf

http://www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/r ... WS0646.pdf

http://www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/r ... WS0208.pdf

http://www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/r ... WS0198.pdf


27 Dec 2012 16:22
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount S
Quote:
Quote:
the same round that was used to drop 1500 pound bison where they stood. And so did the 11m Mauser

Recorded long range shots in the past were taken with similar calibre BP rifles. Typically .45-.50 firing a low velocity and heavy 300-600 gr round-nosed, lead bullets. At that time (before the advent of smokeless propellant) large rifle calibres was the only way of achieving long range at any number of international target matches at that time, reaching out to ranges of 1000 yards. A large amounts of elevation adjustment was used to lob bullets high with rainbow like trajectory, similar to that of a falling arterially shell. Bison were shot by the million with these rifles as mentioned. Native North American Red Indians, depended on hides and meat which they hunted on horse back, using simple arrows and bow. Nether of those two methods meet today's minimum standard of projectile energy, required to humanly dispatch large 1000 pound + animals. Then hunters had no need to worry themselves with animal cruelty. Bison hunters of course had lots of practice honing their skills at finding the vital areas for an effective shot, sometimes to the rear of the animals skull as they grazed at distances it seems of no more than 100-150 yards. Safe enough distance away to down Bison without the risk of been charged at, if their first attempt ended with a wounding shot.

Interesting first hand accounts of how the fighting unfolded. There is mention of rifle sights set for 300 yards. Much of the firing looks to have taken place at less than half that distance or closer. Not so much the typical sort of trench warfare from the first world war. Reading accounts in first years of the first world war, military tactics it seems had not evolved to any great extent from how battles were fought at the time of the American Civil War. Lines of men 'walked across battle fields' following behind timed synchronized shelling, clearing the way ahead. Rifle fired from standing as enemy lines neared. At shorter distances these old large caliber blackpowder single shot rifles regardless of age (Martini Henry and Mauser 1871) would have been equally devastating.

Doctrine of OVERWHELMING FORCE: "If a unit can bring to bear the three to one advantage, they usually win."
Does it explain perhaps why well dug-in forces, can hold-out, until a superior counter-force large enough is gathered to mount an attack?

Extracts below from some of the accounts posted in the links above.

Quote:
“Mr. Kinahan, Aungier Street, had a miniature rifle range at the rear of his premises. We were encouraged by our Company officers to go there and get as much practice as possible. We went there very often, and we paid for the ammunition out of our own pockets. On one occasion I was allowed to fire two rounds of. 3O3 ammunition at Camden Row. I succeeded in hitting the target with both shots. That was the only occasion I fired ball ammunition until the Rising.”

"A" and "C" moved off about 12 o'clock and on arrival at Mount Street Bridge we were detached from the main body and placed under the command of Lieutenant Michael Malone of my own Company. He divided us into three groups of five men each and a small group comprised of himself, a section commander and two Volunteers. He disposed the groups as follows:- One under section leader George Reynolds to Clanwilliam House overlooking the bridge and Northumberland. Road the second group of which I was a member, under section leader O'Donoghue to the Schools, Northumberland Road, situated a few yards down from the canal bridge on the left side. The third group under a squad leader Padraig O Dubhghaill (now Superintendent Garda Siochana) to the parochial Hall on the right side of Northumberland Road and nearly opposite the Schools. He brought the last group down to 25 Northumberland Road situated on the corner of Haddington Road and made it his Headquarters.

When we occupied the Schools we barricaded, all doors and windows and filled, every available vessel with water and made sandbags of coal, slack and everything we could lay our hands
on, but it soon became apparent that, the post had no military value as it was too far in from the road and was enclosed by high hedges. There was a very limited view from it.
Later that evening, I think about 4 O'clock, we heard firing and it seemed to come from the direction of Lieutenant Malone's post but we did not know what he was firing at.
During the night Lieutenant Malone visited. Our post and told us.......

From our position we had a good view of Percy Place, Mount Street. Bridge, portion of Northumberland Road, and an avenue (Estate Cottages) opposite, running between two rows of cottages. I was armed with a Martini Enfield rifle and 250 rounds of ammunition.The firing was first heard in the direction of Ballsbridge at about 11 a.m. and Lieutenant Malone was in action at approximately 11.30, and except for occasional shots the garrison of Clanwilliam House was not in general action until about midday. Up to this we had not seen any of the enemy.

The frontal attack on the bridge ceased about 7 O'clock but spasmodic firing continued, during this period I heard the explosions of hand-grenades and later noticed that Clanwilliam House was on fire. The flames from Clanwilliam House lit up the bridge. About 8.30 Clanwilliam House was completely in flames. About this time I suggested to section commander O'Donoghue that he should get in touch with Headquarters to find out what we should do. He instructed cooper to get in touch with Headquarters and we got back word that we were to return to the Bakery and not to interfere with the barricades at the gate and cottage which we had erected earlier in the day. the retired over the hospital wall into the grounds of Sir Patrick Dun's Hospital and reported back to Captain Donnelly at Bolands Bakery. I gave Captain Donnelly a rough account of what happened during the day. I then had a some food, the first I had since morning.

Commandant De Valera arrived on the scene and wanted twenty men to carry out a bayonet charge (I am not sure where he intended to have this charge). We were excused on account of being in Roberts Yard all day, and, therefore, very tired, but we offered our rifles and bayonets Our rifles; were not taken as the charge was cancelled as there were not sufficient men to take part in it. I had a sleep that night in the Bakery. The following morning Captain Donnelly brought Seumas Doyle, Bob Cooper and I to Commandant De Valera who instructed us to report back to Roberts yard to the position we had occupied the previous day. I think it was Captain Donnelly who pointed out to the Commandant that to get into the yard we had to cross a 12 foot wall as we had not removed the barricade on the gate and cottage. He then cancelled the instruction. I heard afterwards that the yard was actually occupied by British troops at that time. On Thursday we did very little except rest in the Bakery. During the day the British had an artillery piece on Percy Place and it was shelling the Distillery on which a green flag with a harp had been flying since earlier in the week.

The British gun-boat "The Helga" also shelled the Distillery and during the day one of the shells dropped on the Bakery and struck a bread van on the top of which was a large number of our own grenades, but luckily no damage was done and the grenades did not explode. That night we evacuated the Bakery and went to the railway line. One of our men who had been in the Distillery was suffering from shell shock and with Captain Donnelly's permission I brought him back to the Bakery, made him comfortable and remained with him all night. His name was Cullen. I cannot recall his christian name....

Reynolds ordered us to fix sights at 300 yards

“The Lieutenant fired a few times and the sniper crashed down, dragging with him the window blind. Lieutenant Malone was the crack shot of the 3rd Battalion with the mauser automatic and in the main battle on Wednesday he wrought terrific havoc among the enemy with it, at times recklessly exposing himself.......We had originally arranged to make a final stand at the top of the house, having left upstairs, loaded rifles with bayonets fixed, one Lee Enfield and two Howth mauser rifles but the forcing, of the glass-panelled door at the end of the rear hall corridor by the enemy separated Micheál and myself and ruined our plans.


27 Dec 2012 18:55
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount S
With regard to the performance of the 1871 Mauser I found these extracts interesting.

Quote:
It was now about twelve noon, and when he had done so, I saw a man in English uniform running from Percy Lane along Percy Place and up the steps of a house. I fired for the first time from my Howth gun, and for that matter from any other rifle! I do not know what happened to me, or how long I was unconscious. In the excitement I did not heed the lectures and did not hold the weapon correctly. The result was, the butt hit me under the chin and knocked me out. When I came to I discovered that a large piece of the granite window sill had vanished. I had received a good lesson, and for the remainder of the scrap I remembered it was a Howth gun I had to deal with!


Quote:
On looking towards Percy Place, I discovered several of the enemy looking for cover. I fired again and again until the rifle heated so much it was impossible to hold it. I heard Jim blazing away overhead and went up to see how he was doing. When I came down again there were three bullet holes in the window shutter where my head would have been had I not gone Upstairs. This volley could only have been fired from St. Mary's Church in Haddington Road. The angle from the shutter to the bullet marks on the carpet proved this. The carpet was scorched in three places.


28 Dec 2012 08:53
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount S
In my experience of shooting the 11mm Mauser, it has a genteel shove much like a 2 3/4 game shotgun cartridge. That shooter must have been inexperienced to a level that I can't comprehend.

tac


28 Dec 2012 15:56
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount S
The last two posts hits the nail on the head. We had some colourful views expressed from our northern counterparts around some of the anomaly found in our firearms act 2009. One of them studied the RTE News broadcast on the Easter Rising weapons being test fired and decided to sent us a number of video grab pictures and by the way, apperently he has taken a shine to Sharon and the way she reads the news!

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useless penetration at 100 yards
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Smokeless propellant without plumes of dirty black smoke
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11 Mar 2013 21:07
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount S
Coupla things, Gentlemen - 'Commandant De Valera arrived on the scene and wanted twenty men to carry out a bayonet charge.' Uh, right. Twenty men, armed to the teeth with a bayonet each, charging out of their relatively safe little stronghold, directly into British troops who were, by then, themselves securely dug in behind THEIR stronghold.

My low opinion of him has not changed over the years.

We move on....

Black powder smoke is white, not black, as you can clearly see in the captured image........as well as on the many thousands of Youtube movies, some of which are my own.

Best t otall

tac


12 Mar 2013 10:54
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount S
Kieran McMullen
Weapons of the Irish Rebels and the British


http://kieranmcmullen.com/2011/11/01/we ... e-british/

http://mxpublishing.me/2011/04/19/inter ... mes-novel/

http://kieranmcmullen.com/about/

:(

The M71s were cheap and so you could get lots more guns for your money. Also, the trip from the Eurpean mainland to Ireland is much shorter and though the rifles had to be transloaded at sea to the smuggling boats the total time in transit was less with less chance of being betrayed.


12 Mar 2013 11:31
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount S
Quote:
I was so overcome that I couldn't speak for a while, as I went over and touched it, and then sat in the driver's seat.
Right where my dad had sat, all those years ago, with General Collins in the back, as he drove him around Dublin.

tac

;)
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=371


12 Mar 2013 18:16
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount S
tac wrote:

My low opinion of him has not changed over the years

tac


+1 , dee val-era wanted a futile heroic bayonet charge ........not involving him, being brave with other peoples lives, a typical politician :roll: .

I was lucky enough to handle several firearms used in the rising , a colt revolver chambered in .455 webley and a german luger 9mm, both were still in the families of those who carried them, sadly (and ironically) they had to be deactivated before the superintendents would allow the families to have them back. I wonder did the supers realize that they wouldn't have jobs if it weren't for the guns they wanted to be destroyed and the men that carried them ?


12 Mar 2013 20:32
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount S
I watched a movie once about a place where only the police and the military had guns.

It was called 'Schindler's list'.

tac


12 Mar 2013 21:19
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Post Re:Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Batle of Mount St.
The guns of 1916 american rifleman article
EWQuinn posted this excellent link over on boards, so i copied it and it is below.


http://www.americanrifleman.org/article ... sub=11&q=1


15 Sep 2013 23:28
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Batle of Mount St
Just beat me to it!! Great article - thanks for posting!

tac


16 Sep 2013 18:27
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Batle of Mount St
tac wrote:
Just beat me to it!! Great article - thanks for posting!

tac


No problem Tac, you are no doubt able to by the excellent "American Rifleman" magazine, it doesn't seem to be sold in ireland, not regularly anyway.


16 Sep 2013 21:35
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount S
http://www.historyireland.com/20th-cent ... -71-rifle/
Patrick Pearse admitted shortly after the landing that the Mauser was of an ‘antiquated pattern, without magazines, and [was] much inferior to the British service rifle’. On the other hand, Darrel Figgis, who purchased the rifles with The O’Rahilly in Hamburg, described the Mauser as ‘ideal for our purpose, cheap and undeniably effective’.
Although technically obsolete, the Mauser was an effective weapon, firing a larger bullet than the British Lee-Enfield. It had ferocious recoil, however, as Tom Walsh learned:

‘In the excitement I did not heed the lectures and did not hold the gun correctly. The result was that [the first time I fired it] the butt hit me under the chin and knocked me out.’

The other disadvantage was the low rate of fire (four or five rounds per minute) as it did not have a magazine.


28 Jan 2014 14:32
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount S
Rayfn wrote:
http://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/the-mauser-model-71-rifle/
Patrick Pearse admitted shortly after the landing that the Mauser was of an ‘antiquated pattern, without magazines, and [was] much inferior to the British service rifle’. On the other hand, Darrel Figgis, who purchased the rifles with The O’Rahilly in Hamburg, described the Mauser as ‘ideal for our purpose, cheap and undeniably effective’.
Although technically obsolete, the Mauser was an effective weapon, firing a larger bullet than the British Lee-Enfield. It had ferocious recoil, however, as Tom Walsh learned:

‘In the excitement I did not heed the lectures and did not hold the gun correctly. The result was that [the first time I fired it] the butt hit me under the chin and knocked me out.’

The other disadvantage was the low rate of fire (four or five rounds per minute) as it did not have a magazine.


Well, here my pal Pete shooting HIS 11mm Mauser - sure as hell doesn't look like 'ferocious recoil' to me. I've shot it dozens of times, too, and it feels like shooting non-magnum 12g.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn6B8hvrXC8

You'd need to be shaped like a pretzel to hold a rifle so that it hit you under the chin...

It's interesting too, that Patrick Pearse, who knew a bit about guns, was of the opinion that the Mauser Model of 1871 was 'much inferior' to the Lee-Enfield rifle. Well, that hardly takes a brilliant gentleman like Mr Pearse to figure out. Look at the comparisons - and yes, I know that many of you have a Lee-Enfield of one kind or another...

Mauser - single shot. L-E - ten shot magazine.

Mauser rof - five aimed shots per minute with a skilled operator. L-E - at least twenty rounds a minute.

Mauser - rare ammunition, cannot be picked up on the battlefield. L-E - EVERYBODY in the Rising on both sides had .303 ammunition. In real life, the 11mm stuff hasn't been made since the '50's. And THAT was in Canada where they sold the rifles for $5.00.

Mauser muzzle velocity - 1360-1420 fps. L-E - 2350 fps.

By 1888 the later version of this FIRST-generation German military firearm had been replaced by the far more modern Commission Model with smokeless loads of high velocity ammunition and high capacity magazine.

And yet, the PTB have decided that the old single-shot Mauser is not only restricted because of its calibre, and, if you think about it, prohibited because in Ireland you can't make the ammunition for it.

V. odd

tac


28 Jan 2014 18:14
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount S
Guns of the Rising...

This post has just appeared on http://www.gunboards.com - thort some here might be interested -

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread. ... ost5968770

Anybody here got a gun that may have been used at that time - shooting in either direction, that is.

tac


(Mod Edit)
This the last day of the centenary year of Easter 1916


30 Dec 2016 11:49
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