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IS A RELOADING ROOM AN EXPLOSION HAZARD 
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Joined: 31 Mar 2009 13:17
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Post IS A RELOADING ROOM AN EXPLOSION HAZARD
http://youtu.be/6NcCGckpNSE
keep it safe, until next one ya all take care :shock:


24 Apr 2013 10:53
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Post Re: IS A RELOADING ROOM AN EXPLOSION HAZARD
Your Kitchen & Garage has more hazardous material to worry about than a few small tubs of safe modern smokeless propellant. Stored an 'approved' (HSA) fire retardant box, rated to withstand the heat and flame for at least a half hour, thereafter the box and contents burn at a moderate rate, 'if' reached by the fire. At that stage the whole structure (house, garage, shed) may have already burned-down. The greater 'approved' danger is the potental of a pressurised gas cylinder with stored petrol for cutting the grass, exposed to fire and exploding. In a 'small diameter' tight tube, i.e. the barrel of a firearm, any obstruction may cause the barrel to bust on firing!


24 Apr 2013 13:10
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Post Re: IS A RELOADING ROOM AN EXPLOSION HAZARD
Just to make a point [again] that I've already posted on the dangers of short-loading or shooting a muzzle-loader with a barrel obstruction - a bullet or ball firmly in contact with the propellant - ANY type of propellant - or in a cartridge, will, on firing, exit the muzzle in the usual manner.

ANY AIR-GAP between the charge and the projectile, within the barrel - between the cartridge case and bullet - or between the loose charge and bullet - will result in the barrel, on firing, turning into a small or a large pipe bomb as the advancing detonation wave passes between the charge and the obstruction - bullet or mud or whatever. IFyou are very lucky, in modern arms, and the bullet is only a very shot way infront of the charge, you might just get way with a ringed barrel - serious enough to warrant replacement. Much further, and there are no hard and fast rules here, the barrel will come apart, and the hands holding it along with it, as shown on my video.

In case you have forgotten what that looked like - here it is again - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmsBF6CXs18

The same rules apply to a metallic cartridge-firing gun of any kind - if you get a bullet stuck down that barrel, you are holding a bomb in your hands if you shoot it again.

tac


25 Apr 2013 10:33
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Post Re: IS A RELOADING ROOM AN EXPLOSION HAZARD
We are the exception to the rule, generally there are no rifled projectile firing muzzleloaders in southern Ireland!
Barrel ordance steel made and Proof-tested to SAAMI Centerfire Standards is made and designed to fire with modern smokeless propellant driven ammunition. Muzzleloader barrel steel usually will not withstand the much higher pressures devoloped by modern propellant, except where reduced loads are used or dual rated barrels being the exception. It would be interesting to see proof tests for muzzleloader barrels if there is any which may not be the case. Pedersoli I believe use chrome moly in their barrels, but am certain not all modern muzzloaders are build as strong!
Refering to what SAAMI say about Sporting Ammunition and the properties of smokeless propellant quote; "If burning smokeless powder is confined, gas pressure will rise and eventually can cause the container to burst. Under such circumstances, the bursting of a strong container creates effects similar to an explosion. For this reason, the U.S. Department of Transportation (formerly Interstate Commerce Commission) sets requirements for shipping containers for propellants and requires tests of loaded containers under actual fire conditions before approving them for use.
When smokeless powder in DOT-approved containers is ignited during such tests, the container seams split open or lids pop off to release gasses and powder from confinement at low pressure.
When smokeless powder burns, a great deal of gas at high temperature is formed. If the powder is confined, this gas will create pressure in the surrounding structure. The rate of gas generation is
such, however, that the pressure can be kept at a low level if sufficient space is available or if the gas can escape.
In this respect smokeless powder differs from blasting agents or high explosives such as dynamite or blasting gelatin, although powder may contain chemical ingredients common to both of these products. Smokeless powder does not detonate like high explosives as it has a controlled rate of burn and differs considerably in its burning characteristics from common “black powder.” Black powder burns at essentially the same rate out in the open (unconfined) as when in a gun.
When ignited in an unconfined state, smokeless powder burns inefficiently with an orange-colored flame. It may produce a considerable amount of light brown, noxious smelling smoke. It leaves a residue. Hodgdon 4831SC smokeless propellant burn example http://youtu.be/bAjyPjimNrc".



SAAMI Smokeless Powder Properties & Storage
http://www.saami.org/specifications_and ... Powder.pdf


25 Apr 2013 14:05
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Post Re: IS A RELOADING ROOM AN EXPLOSION HAZARD
Most, if not all, of Pedersoli and Uberti CARTRIDGE firing long arms are proofed to shoot NITRO loads, and may therefore be shot with BP with total safety.

NO muzzle-loader ever made is proofed for ANY nitro load of any size.

However, there ARE Italian replica manufacturers who STILL make and proof guns for BP only - they are clearly stamped to this effect with the words 'BLACK POWDER ONLY', just in case of any confunglement. AIA is one such maker of Sharps replicas - both loose-loading [also paper cartridge] or BP-loaded 45-70 Govt cartridges that replicate the original 70gr compressed BP load.

tac


25 Apr 2013 16:16
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Post Re: IS A RELOADING ROOM AN EXPLOSION HAZARD
If Smokeless and Blackpowder shooters propellant was a high risk hazard assessed with regard to EU and USA Health & Safety, why for example can non- commercial powder limits for home storage in the UK, have had an actual 'increase for the amounts of powder' granted last year to home reloaders? HSE (UK) has the necessary test laboratories and expertise in such matters to advised on the increase!

Simple shelf-storage arrangements in a dry room, powder kept in their approved containers - are the only t basic requirement needed for home storage of non-commercial amounts smokeless shooters powder!
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Reloading Guide:

http://www.reloading.org.uk/

http://www.black-powder.co.uk/Reloading.pdf

http://www.sportsmanguncentre.co.uk/category/Reloading/



Quote:
Good news for reloaders!
As the result of discussions with British Shooting Sports Council representatives, the Health & Safety Executive has just issued a new exemption that increases from 5 kilos to 15 kilos the quantity of bulk smokeless powder that a shooter may possess without registering his premises.
The BSSC team of Colin Greenwood (Gun Trade Association), Ken Hocking (Muzzle Loaders Association), Matt Perring (BASC) and Secretary David Penn entered into discussions with HSE in 2011 as part of the latter's ongoing review of explosives controls.

Under the Explosives Act 1875, an individual was allowed to possess, for private use, 30 pounds of black powder (now 15 kilos), this being the weight of the contents of a standard powder barrel. This was later modified to allow possession without having to register the premises of either 15 kilos of black powder or 10 kilos of black and 5 kilos of smokeless powder, proportions that hardly reflected today's predominant use of smokeless for reloading.

BSSC was able to negotiate a considerable improvement for the reloader without in any way disadvantaging the muzzle-loader or re-enactor. The 2012 exemption allows possession without registering the premises of 15 kilos of 'shooter's powder' comprising any proportion of black and smokeless powders from 15 kilos of black to 15 kilos of smokeless.

Existing controls relating to acquisition and transportation of black powder remain unchanged.

Points to note
MSER Certificate of Exemption No 1 of 2012 exempts any person who stores shooter's powders within the quantity permitted in the certificate from the requirement of regulation 10(1) of MSER in relation to that storage.

The exemption certificate does not replace the existing provisions of regulation 10(2)(b) of MSER, it is an alternative and is subject to certain conditions. Where the exemption is used, it is in substitution for the provisions provided in regulation 10(2)(b), not in addition to them.

Persons storing shooter's powders under the exemption can store up to a total of 15kg of black powder, smokeless powder or a mixture of both. They can also store up to 15kg of percussion caps, small arms ammunition or a mixture of both.

The exemption only permits the combination and quantities of explosives specified in the exemption certificate. It does not permit the storage of any other explosives at the site, including those articles in Schedule 1 of COER.

If a person requires explosives other than in the quantities and combination specified in the exemption, they cannot use the exemption and must comply with the provisions of regulation 10 of MSER.

All shooter's powder (whether stored under the exemption or not) should be stored safely and securely in accordance with the guidance in the MSER Approved Code of Practice.



06 May 2013 20:51
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Post Re: IS A RELOADING ROOM AN EXPLOSION HAZARD
Quote:
Manufacture & Storage of Explosives Regulations 2005 (ISBN 0-11-072764-9)
Also available from: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20051082.htm

Manufacture & Storage of Explosives Approved Code of Practice & Guidance (ISBN 0-7176-2816-7)
These publications are obtainable from;
The Stationery Office (TSO) HSE Books
P.O. Box 29 PO Box 1999
NORWICH Sudbury, Suffolk
NR3 1GN CO10 2WA
Phone: 0870-600-5522 Tel: 01787-881165
Email: book.orders@tso.co.uk
Internet: http://www.hsebooks.co.uk

Internet: http://www.tso.co.uk/bookshop

16. Additional reading
Additional Guidance on the - storage of shooters powders: http://www.hse.gov.uk/explosives/shooterspowders.pdf

Guidance for re-enactors - The Health & Safety Executive(HSE) have issued guidance called
'Acquisition and use of Explosives by Historical Societies' ISBN 0-7176-1622-3, price £3.50, (or £7
for three copies) It's available from the HSE at PO Box 1999, Sudbury, Suffolk, CO10 6FS, Tel:
01787-881165 or Fax: 01787-313995. Please note that this document was produced prior to MSER
2005 and a new version is due to be published in due course.
Advice about the practical use of shooters powders on ranges and additional practices for muzzle
loading arms can be obtained from the Muzzle Loaders Association of Great Britain’s ‘Code of
Practice for Muzzle Loading Arms’. This document is available by contacting the MLAGB:
http://www.mlagb.com

For additional information about explosives such as storage, transport, security, transfers and more
go to the explosives section on the HSE website at http://www.hse.gov.uk/explosives/


http://www.reloading.org.uk/

BASC
Guide for Sportsmen to the
Manufacture and Storage of Explosives Regulations (MSER) 2005 &
associated legislation

Extracts:

Home loading of small arms ammunition.
If you load or reload sporting ammunition for your own use, you do not require an RCA document in respect any of the components of that ammunition (including black powder) where you acquire and transport it to the place you will make up the ammunition. However, buyers or sellers of bulk components will need an RCA document (See next item below)

8. Storing Nitro-cellulose based powders.
Nitro-cellulose propellants are usually hazard type 3. No separation distance applies for stores of powder less than 25kg*. A home loader does not need to comply with the ACoP paragraphs 410 -
420 i.e. does not have to store nitro-cellulose propellants in a partitioned wooden box so long as he is storing LESS than 25Kg.


7. Storage of Black Powder.
All dangerous substances are classified by a United Nations system.
Explosives are categorised as Class 1. MSER allocates “Hazard Types” to all explosives categorised as UN Class 1. Hazard types range from 1 to 4, and those types are generally defined by the behaviour of the explosive when it functions during any process of manufacture and storage.
Black powder is classed as Hazard Type 1. All Hazard 1 material has a separation distance*
applied when stored. Schedule 2 of MSER (pages 137-148 of the ACoP) lists separation distances to
be applied to the stored explosive, dependant on the type and quantity.
Separation distances are used to keep explosive stores away from other buildings. It is a complex system designed for safety. Note: Separation distance does NOT apply to hazard type 1 powder ('BP') if ACoP paragraphs 410-420 are applied i.e. if they are stored in a suitable wooden, partitioned box (See Annex C). Powder should also be stored in their original supplied containers/packaging and with no greater than 550 grams per container (approx 1 ¼ lb). A temporary exemption does exist for 1kg (non metal) containers until manufacturers and suppliers change their packaging, see Part (b) in the miscellaneous section on Page 8

Storage container size.
The HSE recommends that all shooters powders should only be stored in containers holding less than 550 grams. However for the time being, until stocks are used up and replaced, some powders may only be available in 1kg containers. It is permitted to continue to store powder in these 1kg containers until manufacturers reduce the container size, the conditions in relation to the storage of black powder continue to apply, irrespective of container size i.e. a wooden partitioned box.
b) Decanting (moving powders between containers) Plastic containers – ‘Although shooters’ powders are generally not very sensitive to ignition by electrostatic discharge, homeloaders or others who decant the contents of plastic containers must take care to reduce the risk of build up of static electricity. Advice on appropriate precautions may be sought from the manufacturer”.



07 May 2013 10:06
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Post Re: IS A RELOADING ROOM AN EXPLOSION HAZARD
I've got about eight containers of different propellants safely stored in my little shed chez tac.

Let's just take a deep breath here, folks, and thereby prevent a degree of running around with our hair on fire. 25kg of propellant represents 55 POUNDS weight of propellant. In American containers, that's 55 actual containers of propellant. WTH would ANY one person actually NEED fifty-five cans of propellant powder for? Setting aside the fact that it represents, here in UK, a financial outlay seriously north of £2500 at the very least....

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The current contents of my reloading box stock.



Let's further put it into perspective by examining what you can actually DO with a single ONE POUND can of propellant - 7000gr in a pound, remember -

You can reload, on average -

290 rounds of .223.

200 rounds of .243.

170 rounds of .308.

1400 rounds of .38Spec.......

tac


07 May 2013 16:40
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Post Re: IS A RELOADING ROOM AN EXPLOSION HAZARD
ignorance is innocence, stupidity comes with experience :lol:


09 May 2013 11:59
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Post Re: IS A RELOADING ROOM AN EXPLOSION HAZARD
Hickok 45 thinking about it :roll: http://youtu.be/irC3NuIKDm4


27 Jun 2013 17:54
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Post Re: IS A RELOADING ROOM AN EXPLOSION HAZARD
SMLE303 - as you may or may not know, ALL packaging for propellants is actually designed to fail-safe should the contents be exposed to heat sufficient to actually ignite the stuff in the first place. And, as Mr Hickock demonstrates, propellant does not explode per se, but deflagates FAR slower than an equal amount of Black Powder, which is a Class 1 explosive. Hence I am not overly worried about storing nitro-cellulose-based prpellants in my little shed, in a suitable loose-lidded AMMUNITION box, which is itself designed to protect live ammunition from the effect of flames impigning directly upon it. As most of us here know, wood is a VERY good protector when used as a container, or else why would most outer ammunition boxes and explosive storage boxes be made of the stuff?

tac, off shooting :mrgreen:


28 Jun 2013 09:43
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Post Re: IS A RELOADING ROOM AN EXPLOSION HAZARD
Quote:
And, as Mr Hickock demonstrates, propellant does not explode per se, but deflagates

The international experience of smokeless propellant since the early '1900s', confirms its suitability as a stable item to allow personal storage amounts. Ammunition, primer and propellant togeather in one small tight container. Under extreme 'test conditions' commissioned by the SAAMI (standards org) it was amply demonstrated why modern propellant has far less of a fire hazard risk than almost all other household products combined.
http://www.saami.org/videos/sporting_am ... ighter.cfm

Thousands of small tight containers, i.e rounds of ammunition, set on fire, evidence of burst-open cartridges with loose propellant scattered and exposed to extreme heat and fire. The results not surprisingly show consistently large stockpiles of ammunition, placed into extreme test conditions, do not cause explosions. Escaping debris, brass cases and bullets moved at such low velocitys fire fighters / first responders were able to stand close to ammunition fires without injury.

With that type of first-hand test evidence costing several 100,000 of dollars paid by the SAAMI, it's safe to assume these conclusions would stand up to sctutiny anywhere in the world.

Ammunition under normal conditions can safely be reloaded with next to no risk for the user.
Whether small numbers of already licensed people in the South of Ireland having an interest in reloading with a suitable firearm, poses any greater degree of risk, we can only hazard a guess at. Any assessment would be welcome but doubtful sufficient testing facilities, if available could afford testing to that degree.
In reality it should be acknowledge that a far greater risk exists when using firearms after they are discharged.
Evaluation of the F-Class pilot scheme should be expected to throw-up no big surprises, whenever it reaches a conclusion if it has not already.

In the North of Ireland of course reloading is allowed to take place at home, usually an assigned locked room in the home, the garage or garden shed.
http://www.youtube.com/user/shootNbreeze?feature=watch


03 Jul 2013 14:47
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Post Re: IS A RELOADING ROOM AN EXPLOSION HAZARD
Backstop Benny wrote:
May 30 through June 1, 2014,1200yards :shock:
international brigade of reloaders :roll:
ya dont stand a rats arse, wheres the manuals,bullets, powder, press

tac ;)


Ah, just so's folks don't get the wrong impression here, I did NOT say that.

Mr Melia, like all the top-ranking TR/F-TR shooters in the RoI, is permitted to reload so that he, and they, can compete on equal terms with the rest of the shooting world.

tac


25 Feb 2014 15:22
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Post Re: IS A RELOADING ROOM AN EXPLOSION HAZARD
I'm told from another site that ALL of the Irish team are permitted to reload, just like a year or so back when the Creedmore competition was held at The Midlands, and all the Irish competitors were allowed to develop their own loads.

In a bunker, under the supervision of fire, police and ambulance, but still, they WERE allowed to do it. And still are, too. Otherwise the competition would not be a fair one.

tac


25 Feb 2014 21:43
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Post Re: IS A RELOADING ROOM AN EXPLOSION HAZARD
Good to hear the Explosives Departement of the Doj were approachable to allow this now well established, since 2011- shooters powder, pilot scheme.
Deservedly granted for sports shooting purposes, to reload ammunition, made using safe modern smokeless propellant. It would be interesting to hear what conclusions, if any, were reached from the trials & testing to date. Perhaps a wider array of Irish, vetted & licensed to fire real firearms & ammunition over various distances, will at some time soon, learn when they can join the rest of the (EU) in this common activity. The Canadian Government's Explosives Branch, (inc N.Ireland) recently announced they, had- "very little concern over handloading activities. Hence, the significantly increased limits"
What overseas visitors make of the services of fire, police and ambulance on standby duty, near the vicinity of a bunker, used in bygone years for large storage, under the old British, Black Powder explosives act of 1875 (since then, updated twice in the UK & Canada..)- one can only speculate at.


27 Feb 2014 13:24
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Post Re: IS A RELOADING ROOM AN EXPLOSION HAZARD
BISLEY SHOOTING CENTER
http://youtu.be/seEV23eRB7A
4:10/4:38 o naturale on the bench baby :shock:
done under the gazebo :lol: :lol:
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http://www.ebay.com/bhp/outdoor-gazebo


27 Feb 2014 22:06
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Post Re: IS A RELOADING ROOM AN EXPLOSION HAZARD
Blackadder wrote:
Good to hear the Explosives Departement of the Doj were approachable to oversee this now well established, since 2011, shooters powder pilot scheme.
Deservedly granted for sports shooting purposes, to reload ammunition, made using safe modern smokeless propellant. It would be interesting to hear what conclusions, if any, were reached from the trials & testing to date. Perhaps a wider array of Irish, vetted & licensed to fire real firearms & ammunition over various distances, will at some time soon, learn when they can join rest of the (EU) in this common activity. The Canadian Government's Explosives Branch, (inc N.Ireland) recently announced they, had- "very little concern over handloading activities. Hence, the significantly increased limits"
What overseas visitors make of the services of fire, police and ambulance on standby duty, near the vicinity of a bunker, used in bygone years for large storage, under the old British, Black Powder explosives act of 1875 (since then, updated twice in the UK & Canada..)- one can only speculate at.


It's a funny ould world, to be sure.

Over the last five days I've made -

1. 150 x 7.5x55 Swiss

2. 100 x 6.5x55 SE

3. 100 each 140 and 175gr 7x57

4. 400 x 357Magnum

5. 200 x .308Win

...in my little wooden shed in the backyard.

The HSE, Firefighters, police/security staff/hovering helicopters and St John's Ambulance personnel were ALL not there.

And nothing happened.

Wow.

tac


28 Feb 2014 09:01
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Post Re: IS A RELOADING ROOM AN EXPLOSION HAZARD
F-Class Rifle European Championships http://youtu.be/NVBlAjsWbzA
180 shooters


28 Feb 2014 11:42
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Post Re: IS A RELOADING ROOM AN EXPLOSION HAZARD
tac wrote:
The HSE, Firefighters, police/security staff/hovering helicopters and St John's Ambulance personnel were ALL not there.

And nothing happened.

Wow.

tac


Well something happened when the "Cleaning Rod which was not removed from the barrel of a rifle, caused a catastrophic failure."

Obstructions, i.e. cleaning rods, cotton patchs, mud & snow; under 'extreme circumstances' can cause a catastrophic failure. The barrel rapidly expands, leading to over-pressure of the vessel.
Rarely do these extreme failures occur when discharging a firearm. Millions safely relaod ammunition in their homes & sheds, inc very safe, out- doors on a bench. ;)
A Safer statistic than driving to the filling-station and fill-up with petrol, without sight of emergency services present to supervise procedures.. And a whole host of other 'approved activities' with far greater danger attached to them.


28 Feb 2014 21:12
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Post Re: IS A RELOADING ROOM AN EXPLOSION HAZARD
And how many times has this unfortunate oversight/carelessness actually happened in Ireland since we stopped using muzzle-loading guns of any kind?

A thousand times?

A hundred times?

TEN times?

Nope.

Once.

So they ban the activity in the Republic.

Some halfwit farmer in Ballygohalfwit leave his tractor running, and it 'somehow' drives over him and he gets squished. Do they ban the use of tractors?

Why react, when with a little bit of effort, you can totally OVER-react?

tac, pissed off


01 Mar 2014 12:01
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